GRACIE11.19.96

***** Gracie11.19.96 *****

"How to refute bad openings" by Marc Ghannoum

   **ANNOUNCEMENT** from LateKnight: Ok folks its LECTURE time on board 71
\   hosted by Marc Ghannoum "Gracie" on ICC.  To attend tonights informative
\   lecture type  observe 71 and enjoy!

You are now observing game 71.
Game 71 (Gracie vs. Gracie)
Move  Gracie              Gracie         
----  --------------      --------------
  1.  e4                  g6                
  2.  d4                  f6                
  3.  Nf3                 Kf7               
Spiffboy kibitzes: heh eh
Jeff kibitzes: Yeah, I don't do very well against this defense.
KarateKid kibitzes: huh?
BadPlayer kibitzes: what the hell?
Gracie kibitzes: this for example was the question i was asked on this server
\   by a 1700
KarateKid kibitzes: who is gracie playing?
Spiffboy kibitzes: never seen it
KarateKid kibitzes: is this hypothetical or based on a game played?
Jeff kibitzes: From the many games I've played against g6 f6 and Kf7, I don't
\   have a very good score.
Spiffboy kibitzes: it's a lectue..
ScrumpyManJack whispers: I like black there
Gracie kibitzes: he told me: "my friend always plays this and i can't seem to
\   beat him"
KarateKid kibitzes: isn't that a horrible move?
AlexDC kibitzes: it loses
Jeff kibitzes: Did you tell the 1700 to quit chess?
AlexDC kibitzes: it stinks !
NineBall kibitzes: chief, thats the old two-pawn king opening...
BadPlayer kibitzes: how can a defense like that work?
Gracie kibitzes: of course it's not a good move, but the way to approach
\   dubious OPENING moves is the following
KarateKid kibitzes: heheheh Jeff :)
Spiffboy kibitzes: e5 maybe?
ScrumpyManJack kibitzes: black is lost after three moves!
NineBall kibitzes: resign.
Gracie kibitzes: the first thing to do is classify this type of move
LateKnight kibitzes: please allow Gracie to make the point here folks
Gracie kibitzes: is this a directly losing move?
Jeff kibitzes: No sir.
Gracie kibitzes: no it isn't
Shumway whispers: 71 yes, please
CDavis kibitzes: e5 and Bc4 look tempting..
krakken kibitzes: how long will this lecture last?
CDavis kibitzes: nah..
AlexDC kibitzes: yes
KarateKid kibitzes: no
Jeff kibitzes: it's positionally incorrect.
Gracie kibitzes: the fact of the matter is, if kasparov was to play black here
\   he would beat 80% of us, even masters
Jeff kibitzes: only 80%?
KarateKid kibitzes: I thought it would be around 100 % :)
Gracie kibitzes: now the reason for this being incorrect is kind of obvious
BPF(IM) kibitzes: Actually, 100% would be correct, if you mean people watching
\   this game :)
NineBall kibitzes: im in the 20....
Jeff kibitzes: guys, be quiet, I want to learn how to refute f6 and g6.
KarateKid kibitzes: no castling opportunity, king in the center, non center
\   control by pawns
Rojo kibitzes: I wish there were a way to see only the the comments of Gracie.
\   There is too much noise here
MrCool kibitzes: hmm...
Gracie kibitzes: it loses the priviledge of castling
KarateKid kibitzes: knight trapped
Gracie kibitzes: loses time by not developping pieces
MrCool kibitzes: it does apalutely nothing :)
rjlm kibitzes: too many tempo for black to develop
KarateKid kibitzes: apalutely?
Gracie(DM) kibitzes: a knight that will have difficulty to move etc...
Jeff kibitzes: there are similar systems white tries, it actually has some
\   name.
Gracie(DM) kibitzes: yes there is too much noise here
Jeff kibitzes: SOME PEOPLE are trying to learn here! so shhhhhh
Gracie(DM) kibitzes: please make a kibitz only if you have a relevant comment
\   or question
rjlm kibitzes: what is best way for white to exploit
KarateKid whispers: what's apalutely?
mann kibitzes: you can set kib 2 to block all but Gracie
Gracie(DM) kibitzes: the way to confront this move is also not clear
MrCool whispers: it's does nothing :)_
MrCool whispers: thats :)
CDavis whispers: you'll get BPF too.. but that doesn't matter.. :)
Gracie(DM) kibitzes: some people will advocate a sound development for white
\   here
KarateKid whispers: you mean ABSOLUTELY?
Gracie(DM) kibitzes: which would be correct
rjlm kibitzes: sound development
Gracie(DM) kibitzes: but i think the way to punish this move is to attack the
\   black king rapidly
Gracie(DM) kibitzes: without sacrificing pieces
rjlm kibitzes: shouln't attack befor ready unless great reason
Gracie(DM) kibitzes: for example
Game 71: Gracie moves: Bc4+
Game 71 (Gracie vs. Gracie)
Move  Gracie              Gracie         
----  --------------      --------------
  3.  Nf3                 Kf7               
  4.  Bc4+              
KarateKid kibitzes: any attack here ould be premature
Game 71: Gracie moves: e6
Game 71 (Gracie vs. Gracie)
Move  Gracie              Gracie         
----  --------------      --------------
  3.  Nf3                 Kf7               
  4.  Bc4+                e6                
Game 71: Gracie moves: O-O
Game 71 (Gracie vs. Gracie)
Move  Gracie              Gracie         
----  --------------      --------------
  4.  Bc4+                e6                
  5.  O-O               
KarateKid kibitzes: right
Jeff whispers: Doesn't this transpose?
KarateKid whispers: huh?
Gracie(DM) kibitzes: again, white's position is still not winning
Jeff kibitzes: I kind of like the idea of white playing e5 to weaken the dark
\   squares!!! Wuah!
BadPlayer kibitzes: this seems like the most illogical game i've ever seen
Gracie(DM) kibitzes: but now white is ready to open lines with e5
rjlm kibitzes: white is much further developed though
KarateKid kibitzes: e5 and then knight takes

   **ANNOUNCEMENT** from LateKnight: Its LECTURE time on board 71 hosted by
\   Marc Ghannoum "Gracie" on ICC.  To attend tonights informative lecture type
\   observe 71 and enjoy!

KarateKid kibitzes: if he pushes the worse for him :)
Gracie(DM) kibitzes: ok enough of this game... i'll show you a different type
\   of bad moves
Jeff kibitzes: huh I'm talking about white playing e5 if he has the chance.
MrCool kibitzes: are we gona see the fred? :)

Game 71 (Gracie vs. Gracie)
Move  Gracie              Gracie         
----  --------------      --------------
  1.  e4                  e5                
  2.  Nf3                 f6                
Junk whispers: Damiano!! :)
Gracie(DM) kibitzes: this has actually a name
Ebenfelt kibitzes: nxe5
Gracie(DM) kibitzes: the damiano
Spiffboy kibitzes: Nxe5!
Jeff kibitzes: It's not THAT bad for white.
Jeff kibitzes: er black
Spiffboy kibitzes: I used to knwo the name...
Ebenfelt kibitzes: its okay for black too :)
MrCool kibitzes: it's +- in eco :)
Gracie(DM) kibitzes: i had a friend, rated about 2000 who was playing this with
\   success in tourneys
mann kibitzes: Named for the person who *refuted* it.
Junk whispers: nxe5! qe7!  :)
Jeff kibitzes: Nxe5 Qe7, Nf3 Qxe4 Be2..
krakken kibitzes: ne5
Gracie(DM) kibitzes: the book refutation is the following
Game 71: Gracie moves: Nxe5
Game 71 (Gracie vs. Gracie)
Move  Gracie              Gracie         
----  --------------      --------------
  2.  Nf3                 f6                
  3.  Nxe5              
Game 71: Gracie moves: fxe5
Game 71 (Gracie vs. Gracie)
Move  Gracie              Gracie         
----  --------------      --------------
  2.  Nf3                 f6                
  3.  Nxe5                fxe5              
Ebenfelt kibitzes: and in jeffs variation h6 and qh7
Game 71: Gracie moves: Qh5+
Game 71 (Gracie vs. Gracie)
Move  Gracie              Gracie         
----  --------------      --------------
  3.  Nxe5                fxe5              
  4.  Qh5+              
Game 71: Gracie moves: Ke7
Game 71 (Gracie vs. Gracie)
Move  Gracie              Gracie         
----  --------------      --------------
  3.  Nxe5                fxe5              
  4.  Qh5+                Ke7               
KarateKid kibitzes: b3
Game 71: Gracie moves: Qxe5+
Game 71 (Gracie vs. Gracie)
Move  Gracie              Gracie         
----  --------------      --------------
  4.  Qh5+                Ke7               
  5.  Qxe5+             
Game 71: Gracie moves: Kf7
Game 71 (Gracie vs. Gracie)
Move  Gracie              Gracie         
----  --------------      --------------
  4.  Qh5+                Ke7               
  5.  Qxe5+               Kf7               
Jeff kibitzes: why are we looking at this line?
Game 71: Gracie moves: Bc4+
Game 71 (Gracie vs. Gracie)
Move  Gracie              Gracie         
----  --------------      --------------
  5.  Qxe5+               Kf7               
  6.  Bc4+              
Game 71: Gracie moves: d5
Game 71 (Gracie vs. Gracie)
Move  Gracie              Gracie         
----  --------------      --------------
  5.  Qxe5+               Kf7               
  6.  Bc4+                d5                
krakken kibitzes: isn't 3 ... qe7 a line?
Jeff kibitzes: d5
Game 71: Gracie moves: Bxd5+
Game 71 (Gracie vs. Gracie)
Move  Gracie              Gracie         
----  --------------      --------------
  6.  Bc4+                d5                
  7.  Bxd5+             
Game 71: Gracie moves: Kg6
Game 71 (Gracie vs. Gracie)
Move  Gracie              Gracie         
----  --------------      --------------
  6.  Bc4+                d5                
  7.  Bxd5+               Kg6               
Game 71: Gracie moves: h4
Game 71 (Gracie vs. Gracie)
Move  Gracie              Gracie         
----  --------------      --------------
  7.  Bxd5+               Kg6               
  8.  h4                
KarateKid kibitzes: oh sheesh :)
Jeff kibitzes: h6
Gracie(DM) kibitzes: threatens h5! with a winning attack
Jeff kibitzes: no, Nf6
Spiffboy kibitzes: heh eh..who plays this in tournes?
Jeff kibitzes: is Nf6 winning for white?
Game 71: Gracie moves: h5
Game 71 (Gracie vs. Gracie)
Move  Gracie              Gracie         
----  --------------      --------------
  7.  Bxd5+               Kg6               
  8.  h4                  h5                
Jeff kibitzes: h5
Jeff kibitzes: wasn't h6 bettr
Gracie(DM) kibitzes: only move to stop h5
AlexDC kibitzes: nope
Gracie(DM) kibitzes: and now the move is...
Game 71: Gracie moves: Bxb7
Game 71 (Gracie vs. Gracie)
Move  Gracie              Gracie         
----  --------------      --------------
  8.  h4                  h5                
  9.  Bxb7              
Gracie(DM) kibitzes: !!
krakken kibitzes: u will hammer me at wil 7!
AttackGM whispers: nice king
KarateKid kibitzes: that was stupid
Gracie(DM) kibitzes: this is where i want to make a point
KarateKid kibitzes: you lose the bishop
Spiffboy kibitzes: Qf5+
Gracie(DM) kibitzes: BTW black is lost
Game 71: Gracie moves: Bxb7
Game 71 (Gracie vs. Gracie)
Move  Gracie              Gracie         
----  --------------      --------------
  8.  h4                  h5                
  9.  Bxb7                Bxb7              
Game 71: Gracie moves: Qf5+
Game 71 (Gracie vs. Gracie)
Move  Gracie              Gracie         
----  --------------      --------------
  9.  Bxb7                Bxb7              
 10.  Qf5+              
Game 71: Gracie moves: Kh6
Game 71 (Gracie vs. Gracie)
Move  Gracie              Gracie         
----  --------------      --------------
  9.  Bxb7                Bxb7              
 10.  Qf5+                Kh6               
AlexDC kibitzes: if BxB Qf5 duuh
Game 71: Gracie moves: d4+
Game 71 (Gracie vs. Gracie)
Move  Gracie              Gracie         
----  --------------      --------------
 10.  Qf5+                Kh6               
 11.  d4+               
Spiffboy kibitzes: d3
KarateKid kibitzes: ohhhhh
Jeff kibitzes: d3 is more solid.
KarateKid kibitzes: nevermind :)
BPF(IM) kibitzes: maybe Bd6 after Bxb7
Jeff kibitzes: Hey, will you refute the elephant gambit Gracie?
Spiffboy kibitzes: then how did hte guy success in tourneys with this?
Gracie(DM) kibitzes: but the point is that if you don't see Bxb7, it is not
\   clear at all that white is winning
Jeff kibitzes: e4 e5 nf3 d5, lets see how you refute it
BPF(IM) kibitzes: Then Qa5 looks good
MrCool kibitzes: elephant gambit is +- to :)
Jeff kibitzes: lets look at e4 e5 nf3 d5 PLEASE
Gracie(DM) kibitzes: and i bet that many players would not have seen Bxb7
Gracie(DM) kibitzes: jeff please
KarateKid kibitzes: gracie I'm recording the session...would you "say" the
\   moves for this?
Spiffbo